Below are several of the comments on the event wall surrounding Richard Dawkins coming to the University of South Carolina.
Geraint-God did NOT make you or Dawkins atheists. He did however, give you a free will and you are clearly using it or misusing it, whatever the case may be. God is not going to force Himself upon you or Dawkins. He wants you to choose Him willingly. Whether you acknowledge Him or not, He is waiting for you patiently with love and mercy, but also justice. You were made in His image and likeness, but He will not force that on you either. The Ten Commandments are not suggestions, and they are not meant to cramp your style or stifle your ‘scientific freedoms’ but rather enhance your lifestyle. Let’s face it -its hard to be obedient. You and Dawkins want the universe and yourselves to be the center, go for it. It doesn’t mean that God can’t wait for you and love you while you are “evolving”.
I’ll bet you never liked being told “NO” even when it was in your best interest. You and Dawkins can feel superior to me all you want, and detest me for my ritualistic, traditional, and ideologue lifestyle, but that won’t keep me from praying for you.
I find it bewildering how atheists speak of we Christians as ideologues. Isn’t anyone who has an idea an ideologue? Dawkins may want to look that one up. I can say little else other than God loves all of you atheist, evolutionist, non- purposeful life people, and He will be right there when you realize there are no answers to anything, even evolution ,without HIM.
P.S. I think your life has plenty of purpose!
A Pastafarian Wed Oct 14 2009 11:04
Hehe, Did anyone else know that the book used most commonly by Creationist (aside from the bible) is over 200 years old? And it is still in print? Wow guys, you really need to keep up the good work…
And one of my favorite parts from last night was the discussion about the ten commandments. And I quote, “When Moses came down the mountain with the ten commandments and told the jews, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ The Jews didn’t suddenly say, ‘Hey! he’s right, we shouldn’t kill each other.’ … and I don’t want to know anyone who is not killing someone because they are afraid there is a little spy camera in the sky. I would rather know someone who is good because they just like to be good.”
cogito ergo sum Wed Oct 14 2009 11:04
Ashley, do you take the bible’s advice when it comes to selling your daughters in to slavery? Exodus 21:7-11 NLT. How about the abomination that is shellfish, make sure you stay clear of those. Your book may have served a purpose thousands of years ago in different times but there is no need for it now. How do you explain the fossils of countless animals that are not described in the bible, did the allknowing authors just forget to mention these?
Intellectual/Spiritual Wed Oct 14 2009 11:07
Quit bickering back in forth…the religious ones need to stop with the “burning in hell” references…it just makes you look coarse and generally immature. As far as the “open-minded” atheists….quit flaunting your intelligence as if the pious individuals out there are inferior. I will concede that religions tend to produce some morons…but every person who has totally denied the possibility of God shows their laziness and ignorance as well. Spirituality is a very deep concept with possibilites that are beyond even the comprehension of the greatest of us. Being open-minded means accepting the reality that God can not be proven or denied…an idea that does not belong in the realm of science. Be civil, please. God bless you.
highpriest Wed Oct 14 2009 11:17
Dear Atheists and Dr. Dawkins
I am a deeply religious person and I find your assumptions that man was created (or evolved or however you call it) without supernatural intervention highly disturbing. Namely:
The old myths say that Man was created by the Sky when he had sex with Earth. However modern thinking (circa 2nd century BC) clearly states that in reality Zeus animated the first man with a lightning bolt (if you were not so concerned about monkeys you would have noticed we have ELECTRIC CURRENT running through our brains – and not mud as some of our mislead brothers believe). Modern Scholars, accept the interpretation of the scriptures about the lightning bolt of Zeus, but prefer to move the beginning of life in some early ocean. I deeply disagree with them and their heresy.
However even these accomodationists don’t take Zeus out of the equation. So, how do you dare to do this when you know nothing about our religion.
Please note that if the few Dodacatheists haven’t been sacrificing to the gods for all these years, under persecution from Christians and pain of death, then the Gods would have destroyed everyone. So stop your hybris and sacrifice a white bull to Zeus unless he smites you with his golden shower and such.
smc Wed Oct 14 2009 11:20
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is our deity and therefore deserves to be capitalized! And also, Andrea, people cannot take you seriously when you type like that, capitalizing all of those words and such. In case you didn’t know, capitalizing words is universal for shouting, especially on the Internet. It makes you seem juvenile and not so level-headed. And considering the content, ignorant.
EKM Wed Oct 14 2009 11:39
The lecture rocked.
Come on Churchies– where is your empirical evidence regarding Creationism?? Please don’t respond: “Because that’s what it says in the Bible.” — that’s the usual LAME answer I receive.
Like Dawkins said (paraphase) – you don’t need a “bible” to be a good person — JUST BE A GOOD PERSON!
Your name Wed Oct 14 2009 11:55
One look at this page and one can easily see the indoctrination that corrupts the thought process. christian or not, open your mind and explore all possibilities. absolute certainty is not something this question can be resolved with. More so, think logically about what you believe. If the answer to all you questions is undoubtedly “God did it”, you only leave create more questions….anything capable of such design only creates a bigger and even more implausible question…”who created the designer?”….”he is just there”, answers nothing and simply dodges the question all together…it is illogical and only creates more improbability.
secondly as far the Judah Christian god is concerned: anything all loving (omnibenevolent), all knowing (omniscient), and omnipotent (all powerful) is a complete paradox and cannot possibly be true. One look at the old testament, and you will find “Yahweh” to be anything BUT “all loving”. further more, if a god is all knowing than he cannot possibly be omnipotent, “they are mutually incompatible. If god is all knowing, he must already know how he is going to interviene to change the course of history using his all power. but that means he cannot change his future mind about his intervention, which means he cannot be all powerful.” (Karen Owens)
3rd: as an atheist or even more appropriately a human being. I and ANYONE else on here can quote the bible as MUCH as we want to refute or agree with religion. it is an open book free to the public. just because i acknowledge that the literal text is “complete rubbish” doesn’t mean i can’t have an opinion. I dare say atheist prob. have just as much or MORE knowledge on the bible and what it says, because we free-thinkers are not afraid to examine it and question it rather then taking it for face value. certainly i do not believe all the Christians on here have read the book in its entirety, so what makes them the experts? feel free to take any credited scientific documentation and use it to your advantage, you dont have to be an atheist to do so…certainly i am not saying that.
and feel free to throw any question out there to challenge me or anyone else on here. not every question has a known answer (some do not even deserve an answer; ie: what is the color of omnipotence…grammatically correct but a question that deserves no answer non the less) we atheist DO NOT fess to have an answer for everything…but if there is an answer, im sure one of us can find it.
religion is a simple way to for someone to explain to themselves how something they do not understand works rather than taking the time to look further. (ie; that computer is complex, idk how they made it…thus god made it and the internet….looking further though you see such complexity is really made from a collaboration of simpler parts brought together…finally you may realize it isn’t as complex as once thought)
if you want ME to be tolerant of your belief…than YOU be tolerant of mine!
“we are after all, ALL atheist…when you acknowledge why you do NOT believe in the illogical Zues, Thor, Wotan, Krishna, juju of the mountain, Apollo, ect. you will understand why i do not believe in you God…for i only go ONE god further than you in disbelief” (Dawkins)
Patrick Wed Oct 14 2009 12:02
Your Name, I concur that looking at God through my moral lens paints him as a complete jerk. He wiped out the human race, confounded languages, ordered genocide, etc.
The unfortunate thing about God is that he sets the standard for morality. In the same way you may not agree with what your boss tells you to do, he is, at the end of the day, your boss.
And if you look at the greater picture of the bible, of sacrificing his son (in the same way abram was called to sacrifice issac but didnt), as a sacrifice to atone for our screw-ups, i think it gives a more accurate picture of love. When people turned from him he lamented, or so it says. I have class i’ll answer the rest of your post at a bit later time. cool? good.
Your name Wed Oct 14 2009 11:58
1. Christians.. stop being ignorant. Shut up, read 1Peter 3:15, and come back when you have more than resounding gongs, and clanging cymbaic words sans sound logic. You dishonor Christ with your blind faith and hatemongering. I would say 85% of the people who have commented on this article from a theisitic perspective (most specifically Christian) have 0 to no understanding of Christianity, humility, discourse, rhetoric, love, or even the differences between Christianity and other world religions. could you disprove pastafarianism? Do you even know what that word means?
2. The reason there was no opposition to what he said, in my opinion, was there was little to be opposed to. His logic was sound, though he draws drastically different conclusions. Also, when he makes such blanket statements such as “Evolution is a fact.” he betrays his inability to discuss objectively. I, being a Christian, admit Christianity is merely a theory, and as such “is vulnerable to being disproved, without being disproven.”
3. My favorite thing dawkins said last night was to quit being juvenile when talking about religion. take off the kid gloves and offer forth an argument with evidence. That said, i have a few points i’d like to raise:
* The resurrection of Christ was recorded by 4 well known eyewitnesses, the effects were such that secular historians admitted it, as well as sources that were anti-Christian. (Josephus, Tacitus) Dawkins discussed the evidence of the holocaust and those individuals who would seek to say it never happened. I contend that the resurrection did happen. If there is “overwhelming” evidence for evolution (none of the actual events of which we have observed, only the effects, specifically macroevolution) then how do these two “facts” coexist.
*is there any evidence for the multiverse theory? didn’t think so.
*why do we have conception of right and wrong, good and bad? the final question posed was not answered at all. If we are merely products of evolution, why are there competing voices in our minds for what is ‘good’ and what is ‘bad?’ If a cheetah in the jungle kills and eats a sickly child gazelle, it its normal. If i was hungry and killed a child, boiled it, and ate it, it would be wrong. or in the wild if an animal desires to reproduce, it sometimes does so by rape. Why then is rape wrong for the purpose of reproduction? Why is wrong there? How do you respond to CS Lewis’ argument that the fact that the standard of morality exists because the moral code was written on our hearts?
* I agree when Dawkins said “We did not get our morals from the ten commandments.” of course not. Romans states that the “law was written on their hearts,” pointing as i believe to evidence an ultimate Authority.
So who wants to take a stab at these, without being childish and engaging in actual real discourse?
Patrick Wed Oct 14 2009 12:03
oops.. p.s. that comment below with
1
2
3
*
*
is by me. patrick. woops.
grm Wed Oct 14 2009 12:32
You’re not going to like this, but morals are actually advantageous from an evolutionary standpoint. People found that by getting along and working together they could accomplish greater things like farming, better hunting, and general support.
Some of the particulars of “good” and “bad” were never fully sorted out as is evident in today’s society. “Good” generally means anything that is in your own interest.
And humans are not monkeys. Check a textbook.
Patrick Wed Oct 14 2009 12:45
grm,
Thats basic evolutionary psychology. lol@ “you’re not going to like this” please give me something worth reading. I like truth, but the simple fact is that this doesn’t work. There are plenty of societies where child sacrifice was acceptable, others where it was not. the list goes on about differing ‘morals’ and ‘good’ and ‘bad’ but the fact remains that every civilized society came up with a very similar set of laws. babylonian eye for an eye, greco-roman law, wild west justice.
The notion that we have evolved a sense of right and wrong also does not explain why we sometimes know the ‘right’ thing to do and do not pursue it. Why do i know that its wrong to open the door hard into a car that is parked next to mine?
evolution would say that those with the best traits of morality would survive, but its actually those groups in humanity that were immoral that procreated, and ended the lives of those who were not. Nazis, Vikings, etc. Really, you want to argue that morals evolved? history defeats that idea. Killers survive, and every great society/dynasty ever has fallen at some point.
Patrick Wed Oct 14 2009 12:14
sorry i missed about 1/3 of waht you said there. Of God’s character, namely his infinite ness. In the same way that infinity is a concept rather than a strict defined quantity, God’s (Yahweh, other gods are not being discussed here) infinite nature defines him such that he had no begininning, nor end, nor creator above him. Using the bible, when moses said (paraphrase) who the crap am i gonna say sent me?? god responds “I AM.” The hebrew word used here belies something that has always existed and never will again. This confounds the human mind, but the human mind is finite, even based on evolutionary arguments. Just because we can’t understand something doesnt mean it isnt true: the computer works whether we understand it or not. Just because we cant understand every intricacy of it does not make it suddenly cease to be.
of knowing and changing mind. Gods will, what his desire to do is, is immutable. it is like a ship that continues to sail in a single direction, that has a bulkhead made out of adamantium or somesuch. What we characterize as God changing his mind is what we finitely relate to. we cannot understand how it is possible to have an immutable will, because as humans we are fickle. If we begin from the postulate that we were created in god’s image, we can consider free will as something we have in partial measure. Does our knowledge affect our decisions? of course. If we had all knowledge, would we still make bad decisions? maybe. Does god? no. Maybe that helps. It’s god. i don’t understand 100%, but then why should i if he’s a god worth following? shouldn’t he be bigger than my understanding?
big twinn Wed Oct 14 2009 14:41
love how very few parts of my last post were challenged.
now as a further response to others:
Patrick, your logic that god is just there…that doesnt answer any at all. answering question in that matter doesn’t progress society at all…it merely avoids the question and desire to answer.
anyone that claims god wrote morality on our hearts…(obviously this is figurative) you have need to read the old testament, understand that morality CAN be explained with evolutionary evidence. gradually it progressed as a “You scratch my back and i will scratch yours” metaphor…shall i delver deeper? over time survival of the fittest and natural selection has tamed itself as our society has modernized. killers will always be around whether they have a genetic disorder or not, in the past (millions of years ago) killing was a way to ensure reproduction…eliminating competition (viewable when looking at animal behavior),
the idea that god is harsh so as to distinguish love…come on, he is all powerful, AND all loving…so the harshness and cruelty is unneeded…just “ZAP” it into being.
the idea that god is my “boss”…he isnt, in life we all make our own decisions and are responsible for our own doing…he simply is a fictional figment of your imagination…a damn good hallucination on a theist part if you will.
big twinn Wed Oct 14 2009 14:43
there is just as much evidence for Yahweh as there is for my Spaghetti monster. irrefutable.
as for the origins of man, lets delve deeper into this biblical story; adam and eve.
some take it as figurative. as a metaphor. well if we take this metaphor to heart, lets look at the given scenerio: “a mother bakes cookies, and tells her son and daughter they can eat anything in the kitchen just not the cookies, and if they do eat them she will kill them. haphazardly she places the cookies in a reachable spot. naturally kids are kids and they convince each other to eat one (what mother would kill her kids from eating a cookie?) so she comes back in, sees the missing cookies and crumbs on the childrens mouth. freaks out and kicks the children out of the house. that clearly doesnt resemble a good mother? if it was that big of a deal…simply do not make the cookies or keep them protected so as not to be in reach. but god goes even further! not only is eve punished, but all of eves ancestors are punished. punished for a mistake that they had none to do with. could you imagine if one of you were punished by law forever (white people) because one of your relatives had a (black) slave…and that every relative after you would be as well? (similarly to the “pain” women get when giving birth as a punishment of eve’s sin)…thats RIDICULOUS…why support such a unloving god?
Patrick Wed Oct 14 2009 14:49
Intellectual/Spiritual,
As members of the body of Christ we are called to admonish one another. if you were one of those who came into this commentary/dialogue without sound reason, without evidence, and without engaging or showing respect, your offense at my “arrogance” was deserved.
secondly, i merely pointed to a scriptural passage and alluded to a metaphor used by paul that talks about seasoning the truth we claim as love, and having evidence to back up our faith. if this is seen as arrogant (though it is directed specifically at my fellow christians), then this pointing out was meant for you, because you disagree with my observation.
thirdly, if you are offended at something so simple, then i’m with dawkins; set firmly against you and your lack of confidence in what you believe. Please come with an argument. Intellectual/Spiritual is typically an oxymoron and most Intellectual/Spiritual folk i have met are lacking in some area of logical thought or reasoning. So get off your ‘i’m offended’ high horse and engage in honest discourse or quit being absent minded, accepting ideas based on personal experience, and seek fact.
Amused Wed Oct 14 2009 14:54
… and THIS is what I hate about living in the South. The ignorance displayed by some of the religious people on this page just makes me laugh. All those claiming that “we did not evolve from monkeys” or “if they were our ancestors, then how come there are still monkeys around?” are too brainwashed by religion to see the logical side of evolution, or even comprehend the answers. But other people have already addressed this nonsense, so I won’t even waste my time. Also, I like how they call it the “assumptions” of evolution, when we have far more proof than they do for creationism.
Amused Wed Oct 14 2009 14:59
oh and to Christine – “In the beginning,”GOD created the world” that is all we need to know!!! I am certain that alien Dawkins still CANNOT explain the origins of the world to his or any sane persons satisfaction.”
hmm, to any sane person’s satisfaction… so believing that some almighty creature sat in the sky, got bored, and “poof” created adam and eve out of nowhere, and now knows everyone’s thoughts and actions at all times, and is responsible for all our lives, that’s sane? we might as well believe in unicorns…
Patrick Wed Oct 14 2009 15:03
“over time survival of the fittest and natural selection has tamed itself as our society has modernized… killing was a way to ensure reproduction…eliminating competition (viewable when looking at animal behavior)”
So over time, as killers killed, the opposite happened? the ones who didn’t kill survived? You disproved your own point within 2 sentances.
As for the boss theory.. thats just it. You are free to believe that there is no boss and therefore live however you like. Meanwhile i am faced with insurmountable evidence that there is a “boss;” if this postulation is true (resurrection) then I have to admit maybe he knows better than me. Not that i wouldn’t like sometimes to have sex with people i’m crazy about, or that sometimes i wish i could murder people and get away with it, but that the final moral authority and accounability does not rest with me but with Him.
And as for your metaphor; there are several options here. God could have made a world where only good could occur, but we would be slaves to that good (no free will). God, in order to show his love, created a world with free will. oh and it wasn’t a cookie. more like poison. and the whole rest of the place was filled with cookies. with one vat of poison. and you could eat all the cookies you wanted and not get fat. and then (with some help from a talking snake)(oh and jesus rose from the dead. when thats true implausible goes out the window) they drank the poison. because God created them with free will
You’re saying god’s the bad guy because he didnt enslave us to only good?
no he created us, killed his son to redeem us, and we still have a choice in the matter. one choice (i think) is better in the long haul, but he still created the world with choice available.
see Ravi Zacharias’ argument “the best of all possible worlds”
Patrick Wed Oct 14 2009 15:10
Amused,
yeah i’m a christian and i don’t endorse her point of view.
1 Peter 3:15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
2 peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses
basically there are ignorant people in every camp.
Your name Wed Oct 14 2009 15:14
how can the amazing Dawkins explain miracles then?
luther Wed Oct 14 2009 15:25
Morality and evolution are compatible. Killing might eliminate competition but it also eliminates allies. Those who cooperated thrived through collaborative efforts for hunting, farming, and even breeding. Those whose allies aided their survival in hard times both lived to breed and reciprocated with their benefactors. Those who would kill of their own kin and tribesmen did not live to reproduce.
The same is generally true in the animal world. Lions do not harm lions in their own pride, the same for chimps, wolves, rabbits, . . . Of course there are many successful evolutionary strategies.
From a philosophical perspective: if you are a good person only from fear of hell and promise of heaven, then you are not a good person. If you need religion to keep you from evil then you are evil at heart.
big twinn Wed Oct 14 2009 15:28
what is your definition of a miracle?? that is a very vague question…please give your insight on what a miracle is to YOU…so we can discuss this appropriately…i dont want to address it without having a firm understanding of what your asking…by all means i do NOT have all the answers…if that was so, than science wouldnt be here
god is all knowing…so he knows exactly the choice you will make every second of everyone’s life….thus free will doesnt not exist in your logic..i dont know why you keep bringing up our free will.
if god is our boss…then you are enslaved know matter what…he has all power, all knowledge..thus your free will is none.
god is all loving and all powerful…so he doesnt need to kill his son, he can just zap out sin and forgive us rather then putting his son through all that suffering.
you mention you have evidence….show sufficient evidence…i have yet to here any aside from stories in a book that have as much accreditation as “where the wild things roam”
luther Wed Oct 14 2009 15:31
Dear “your name”,
I saw Lou Holtz tear a newspaper to shreds and then proceed to unfold it and present it as if it had never been torn. I don’t understand how he did that. Is that a “miracle?” Does that make him God?
That is just a silly, silly, argument.
BTW, are you “no name” because you missed the blank or because you want to hide?
Thomas Wed Oct 14 2009 15:59
“Your Name”, how do “you” explain miracles?? btw “God” is no more of an explanation than an excuse of something not YET understood by man. (Sorry for the caps, no underline in this thing..)
Patrick Wed Oct 14 2009 16:06
Twinn,
I can’t speak for ‘Your Name’ but miracles to me are definable as things that break laws of physics, biology, psychology, and science. such as rising from the dead, transmutation, speaking in languages without former training. Maybe you missed Dawkin’s first few points about people trying to convince others that the holocaust didn’t happen. While elie Wiesel is still alive, he’s probably going to decry falsification of that historical reality.
The fact is this occurred 2000 years ago. There were extrabiblical accounts by numerous historians, both pro and anti christian. a simple google search would do you well. meanwhile, those who denied the resurrection occured were denounced and not accepted, in the same way that those who deny the holocaust are denounced today.
As for you asking for evidence, i’ll just quote dawkins: “Whether its intellectual laziness, dishonesty or fundamentalism, so many people still fight…” the truth. go figure out for yourself if its historical fact or fiction. but reducing proof of a historical event by saying it’s contained by at least 7 eyewitness letters is the same as denying
the trojan war
the illiad existing
greek logic
plato
socrates
and basically everything else that existed before you.
are you really so arrogant that you think the world came into being with you? your parents are disproof of that. have you ever seen a photograph of your great grandparents? will you argue that that isn’t a credible source? do you not have grandparents?
history is established based on archaeological and literary evidence. the resurrection has both.
If you want to dismiss something simply because you think it isn’t true, you have no right calling yourself a logical thinker. disprove it yourself.
luther Wed Oct 14 2009 16:22
Dear “your name”,
I saw Lou Holtz tear a newspaper to shreds and then proceed to unfold it and present it as if it had never been torn. I don’t understand how he did that. Is that a “miracle?” Does that make him God?
That is just a silly, silly, argument.
BTW, are you “no name” because you missed the blank or because you want to hide?
luther Wed Oct 14 2009 16:33
Patrick,
So you are claiming that the resurrection of Christ is a proven miracle because many, many years later someone claimed that there were eyewitnesses to the event. So then, all of the many other accounts of resurrection in that time must also be proven, by your logic. Therefore, all of those other deities must also exist. Or, is it just the one that you choose to worship? Or, is it just the one that you were taught to worship?
BTW, it is not a certainty that Socrates existed. The Holocaust, on the other hand, had a million witnesses.
Your name Wed Oct 14 2009 17:28
the fact that the bible is the best selling book….(yes fact) has NOTHING to do with it being true…harry potter is among the top selling books…does that mean its true? your arguement lacks logic..its an ad hominem.
Patty my good friend…no reason to be so hostile…acting like a pompous prick helps your argument none “are you really so arrogant that you think the world came into being with you?” …
these writers were no where near eyewitnesses…get your facts straight…the book was written 150years or so (apprx.) AFTER jesus…they did not witness any of it. infact, the whole old testiment was written based on word of mouth…no eye witnesses…
please name one “miracle that BROKE the laws of physics (just because YOU are not able to explain it, doesnt make it a miracle. as far as discrediting my grandparents… because something is passed along by word of mouth, doesnt make it true! have you never played the child game “Telephone” stories over time change and get exaggerated. ie: rumors, myths etc.
speaking in gibberish tongues no one understands is not learning a language without training…and there is no evidence that ANYONE has ressurected from the dead.
its interesting that Jesus’ EXACT story is almost IDENTICAL to the story of both Krishna and Horus…IDENTICAL and they predate him by hundreds of years!! his story isnt even original…google search that good sir!
Benjamin Combs Wed Oct 14 2009 17:54
First, I’d like to clarify my statement from the article. It wasn’t quoted out of context, it’s just that there wasn’t time for clarification.
I do agree with Dawkins on almost every point he makes. When I say his delivery can be a bit harsh, I am referring to the condescending tone he often takes when debating the religious. While I don’t think atheists should roll over for the religious, especially during debates, I think there’s merit in the idea of staying civil, respectful, calm and logical in your discourse.
In response to Patrick:
On your discussion of morality, I believe that morality’s origins predate religion (an evolutionary psychological view). While one can have morality without religion, it’s difficult to have religion without morality. Many religions today discuss their moral views extensively, and to call yourself a follower of that religion you must also follow those moral tenets. One fault I find in almost every religion, though, is that they attempt to define moral boundaries for their followers. Morality, to me, is quintessentially grey. Attempting to state “Thou shalt not kill” is attempting to place boundaries on something that is subjective and changes with context. While humans in general do not like to kill each other (goes against survival instincts), many humans have risen to power because of their ability to kill. You can’t look at this as just a moral issue, but a cultural and social one as well. A man who comes to power and can kill doesn’t necessarily come to power BECAUSE he can kill. It may be because of fear or influence. Instinct/psychology isn’t the only thing that affects morality, you also have to factor in culture. While much of Western culture would abhor the thought of sacrificing your child, in other cultures it is seen as an act of reverence.
As for the historicity of Jesus, you’re right, many classical historians settle on Jesus existing. That doesn’t necessarily mean the biblical Jesus existed, and that doesn’t necessarily give truth to biblical events. Jesus may have existed, but he may not have resurrected. His body might have been stolen. There are numerous possibilities, and the fact that we have no physical evidence that, without a doubt, proves Jesus resurrected, nor do we have any relevant (read: eyewitness) accounts of his resurrection, we cannot be sure of this. Couple this with science pointing in the opposite direction, along with the lack of miracles following, and you have a hard time proving the divinity of Jesus. Take the word-of-mouth accounts of man aside, what proof do you have?
Now, along with difficulty in proving the divinity of your deity, how do you then prove the fidelity of your religion against all other religions vying for truth? This is the breaking point of religion for me, personally. Every religion has equal truth to it, but the nature of religion is that they’re all mutually exclusive. Either one of the bunch is right, or none are right. I lean toward none.</p>
Be not afraid Wed Oct 14 2009 18:35
Benjamin, you are right . Barak Hussein Obama rose to power by killing millions of pre-born babies. So clearly killing is justified due to a lack of morality. It is the culture. It is called the “Culture of Death”, and you are right when you say people fear him. Obama is one of the most terrifying leaders we have ever had! The pre-born babies are afraid too. Not the protected sea turtle eggs though, they are safe. Whew!! I am so glad about that.</p>
luther Wed Oct 14 2009 20:06
BeNotAfraid,
This has been a civil and interesting discourse. That is, until you came along with your hate and venom. This has nothing to do with Obama. Beyond the hate, you are just spouting nonsense. Take your immoral spewings and leave the space to someone with something to say on the subject at hand.</p>
Mark Wed Oct 14 2009 20:23
I would first like to say that I am a sophomore studying Humanities/philosophy at Columbia International University and as enrolled as such I am a Christian. I attend the discussion last night and found it to be civil (as Josh Dawsey stated) and because of the result I am thankful that those who believe in a transcendent being did not display animosity towards the atheists in attendance. However the overall presentation was similar to many presented by Dr. Dawkins before. I was impressed by some of the questions, but slightly displeased with what ad hom, straw men and lack of reason in considering the application of evidence of which he chose to present.</p>
keith Wed Oct 14 2009 22:20
Dawkins could equally be called intellectually lazy if his premise is that you must believe what he believes or you are lazy or dishonest. How absurd! There are historians who were not believers in Christianity who documented much surrounding the resurrection and other Biblical events. If it did not happen, those who believe are to be pitied. However, take the time to study it (ex. Evidence that Demands a Verdict–McDowell) and come to your own conclusion rather than accepting the claims of Dawkins. I will concede that to believe all the beauty surrounding him-our anatomical design, nature, etc.- has no intellectual design takes ENORMOUS faith.</p>
same student. Thu Oct 15 2009 00:17
think about what you just said…
archeological evidence for the RESURRECTION? oh like what…a body?
good luck trying to find it my friend. He IS risen.
how about this…how about YOU prove to ME why you think God doesn’t exist?
seriously…give it a shot.</p>
Big Twinn Thu Oct 15 2009 00:54
SameStudent, i don’t wish to retype things, especially considering i still am doing HW…but please read below my statements…i believe this alone is sufficient enough for you demand…also, i apologize some of my statements are among the countless “your name” as a few times i forgot to retype it when i had to keep submitting bc things were to long or i carelessly forgot…but it shouldn’t be hard to follow…its in context to my previous posts.
also, as a side note…im curious as to why it is written as “he IS risen”…hy not “he has risen” or he rose” and why is “IS” capitalized….</p>
same student. Thu Oct 15 2009 01:13
it’s written that way because that’s the way i wrote it. satisfied? you are NOT (ask me why that’s capitalized later) going to get me into an argument. the problem with all of this is that many people argue against Christ for the sake of argument not because they legitimately have questions they want to wrestle through. i think it is EASY and SAFE (again…ask me later) to simply argue and deny Christ’s existence. what is BOLD and BRAVE (i know you’re just dying to ask) is to really risk believing in Him. no one who has truly come and denied themselves to follow Christ has ever ever ever been let down. Christ’s invitation is simple: “Come and see.” that’s all. it’s not an invitation to a debate. just come and see.
no i did not read your posts. i don’t need to. they’re all the same. i know i’m not gonna be the one who can change your mind. i just wonder if you’ve ever really wanted to just come and see, if only for a minute.
and i know you’re not doing homework. you are refreshing your browser waiting for my response. and i bet it’s because deep down you really want there to be a God. well there is. come and see.</p>
same student. Thu Oct 15 2009 01:19
oh and another thing…
if you don’t believe in God, why do you live like there is a God?
if God is not real. then there is no purpose. if we’re just beings who are born then spend a few years on the earth then die then what’s the point of anything really? if it’s survival of the fittest…why are there hospitals? why do we pursue justice? why do you have a darfur sticker on your car? what’s the point? it’s just survival of the fittest….if you get cancer then that’s too bad. should’ve evolved better, right?
we don’t live like there is no God b/c we were made in His image. because we have eternity set on our hearts. we care about those less fortunate b/c God cares. we have hospitals because God cares. we’re trying to find the cure for cancer b/c God cares. when you look around and think to yourself “there’s gotta be more to life than this” or “there is just something right about the world” it’s because there isn’t….we live in a broken world but God cares.
come and see.</p>
bre Thu Oct 15 2009 01:21
let’s try this time. you were brainwashed at a young age to believe that an invisible man all of a sudden got bored one day and decided to turn on the lights and create a man out of sand, a woman out of a rib, and only give them consciousness, and although this invisible man is all powerful and all knowing and has already planned everything out he has to go back on his plans constantly to spare lives and grant parking spaces. this might have been a nice explanation somewhere in the dark ages, but silly christian, since you dont believe zeus is throwing down lightening bolts or that people are reincarnated and can jump from being a cricket to a person because of the choices in their cricket life, you might as well just give up on one more silly religion and live your life already. Also, if you’re under the delusion that christ absolved your sins so you dont have to adhere by the rules of the old testament, try Matthew 5:17 – 19 on for size. btw. im an athiest.</p>
bre. Thu Oct 15 2009 01:26
and since when do i need a god to care about others? i live my life because it’s fun. people help others because in the end it helps them as well. finding a cure not only quenches curiosity, gives people something to do, and helps others, but it also gets closer to finding the true origins of man. cause as amazing as the whole sandman story is, its just not believable to anyone with half a neuron. also something hard to find in the bible belt….</p>
Be not afraid Thu Oct 15 2009 08:26
Luther, don’t kid yourself. If you think the discussion thus far has been civil you are from another planet (which God also created, by the way). I do no think there is anything civil about saying God, Jesus Christ does not exist! Your superior elite attitude and your rhetoric does not hide your contempt for others who make you uncomfortable because they love God and want to serve Him. And if you have been reading the commments, particularly the one by Benjamin, than you can see I was indeed responding to what he said. He said that many leaders have risen to power because of their “ability to Kill”. I was agreeing with him. You should be uncomfortable with what I said . Abortion is uncomfortable-especially for the innocent baby. And it reigns supreme over any other kind of murder. Like it or not other people, especially Christians, care about you and your salvation so suck it up!! You tell me how anything I said was hateful or venomous and point out where my facts are wrong! Say it, I dare you to say abortion is not killing. Your ignorance is showing especially when you say my spewings are immoral. How has anything I have said been immoral. Well, the spewings of an atheist are immoral because they deny the existence of God. They ignore natural law, they are selfish and self-centered. If you think I am going to stand by and allow you to say that Jesus Christ did not suffer the greatest suffering in history because He loves you that much, you have got another thing coming. You are living in an “I need to find myself , and what is the meaning of life bubble” Has this been CIVIL enough for you? And get this-I am so immoral that I am going to pray for you. Gotcha!!</p>
Kenneth Thu Oct 15 2009 08:32
Dear Same Student:
We create our own purposes. If we’re just beings who are born then spend a few years on the earth then die (which is basically what happens) the point of anything is that it is better to enjoy life for a few decades than not to live at all (unless of course in cases where suffering is greater than enjoyment).
Also, one should never extrapolate morality from scientific fact. If “survival of the fittest” means we should not care about others, then the “law of gravity” would mean we should not help up people who fall to the ground.
Hospitals are there because people care. We pursue justice because its the right thing to do. (You should also perhaps note that belief in God does not seem to stop Christians from committing crime. A survey on the beliefs of prison inmates would sure be interesting).
That you seem to suggest that because of evolution we should not care about anything, goes to show that you do not understand evolution. Try reading Dawkins’ latest book.
luther Thu Oct 15 2009 10:24
BeNotAfraid,
Your spewings are immoral because you take the position that your religion and, somehow, your God give you dominion over other people and the wisdom and power to control, or end, their lives.
You focus on abortion and extrapolate that to say that anyone not in agreement with your religious fairy tales is a killer. You need to study a bit of history and see how many people have been killed in the name of Christianity. They talk about morality but practice little of it. Christians are in the majority only because of 12 centuries of killing anyone and everyone who disagreed with them, many in ways to horrible to recount. Couple that with dozens of generations of brainwashed children and you have a majority of mindless sheep. Organized religion is all about money and power. That is why it is immoral.
If I say that your God is a figment of your imagination, then you claim that I am not civil. Therein lies the whole problem and the point of the original article. It is possible to raise an opposing viewpoint without hate and venom. But, I guess, not for most Christians. </p>
same student. Thu Oct 15 2009 11:27
bre – i’m glad you’re searching through a bible. keep at it. but see if you were trying to scare me through scripture then you should have told me to look at matt. 7:21-23. now that’s real. i reference that b/c it seems to me that a lot of you have ran into some “Christians” in your day and have completely been turned off by hypocrisy. that’s fair. and i’m sorry. the reality is that especially down here everyone is a “Christian.” even those who don’t believe in any of it will say “yeah, i’m a Christian.” many people claim Christ and are doing an awful job at showing Christ. so i’m sorry.
and kenneth – explain to me where our sense of justice and enjoyment come from? where they something we just inherited through evolution? animals don’t have hospitals. they don’t know justice. they are just animals. they just do. when a gazelle gets eaten by a lion, the other gazelles don’t call the animal police and EMS workers. but why do we? did we just somehow develop the feeling that we need to help one another and all that? what evolution does is clouds our purpose as human beings…we were set apart, made in God’s image. we didn’t just evolve to where we are now. God put these desires in us.
and “we create our own purposes.” so everyone just kinda does their own thing right? and we should be okay w/ that because well “that’s their own purpose” and who are we to judge? right? if you hold that to be true then you have to condone genocide and child sex trafficking and every other despicable thing like that b/c “that was their purpose.” right?
God loves you.
and i love you. and i mean that.
and no one has yet to prove to me why God isn’t real. that burden lies w/ the unbeliever. i wanna see it…point it out to me where you think God isn’t real.</p>
Patrick Thu Oct 15 2009 11:32
I’m going to respond to comments directed at me first.
1. your name.. have you ever heard of Ignatious? he was martyred in 110 C.E. and quoted Matthew Mark Luke John 1Peter and several of paul’s letters.
How could it have been written 150 years, after ad 30 (in 180 CE) if he was killed in 110
for the record 110 is not equal to 180. its 70 years off. i know my facts. do you?
(this section was not in the original post due to high network traffic)
Furthermore, Polycarp: same thing. parasitic quotations of the majority of the N.T. in circulation. Along with all the early church fathers; they almost all quoted pieces from the 4 gospels, writings of Peter and Paul. The New testament is the most widely circulated text in antiquity. Most of the books of the new testament, even by liberal dating, were being CIRCULATED by around 100 CE. Since Christs death was around 30 CE this was well within the range of the original authors having recorded as eyewitnesses.
Your telephone argument is a handy way of both ignoring the significantly small number of repetition errors (which you have obviously done no research on) found in the extant manuscripts and dodging the question.
(end new information)
As for the eastern deities, these were not historical figures. it is accepted fact that Kirshna never existed, as much as Hercules or Zeus never existed. The differentiation between Jesus, the Christ, is that non-christian sources admitted he existed, had a following, was punished (Tacitus) and most definitely existed (Josephus). Kirshna existed only in story, as much as harry potter.
Gibberish tongues are a modern invention of a sect of “christianity” that misinterprets the idea and meaning of tongues. Tongues as recorded in acts are individuals who with no prior training in a language are able to be interpreted by people of another “tongue.” for example if i went to nigeria and were able to speak to people of every different dialect without formal training. I believe i explicitly defined it as such in my previous post, so i am assuming you either ignored what i said or are not familiar with the actual definition of this miracle.
As for “no evidence of the resurrection” I place great emphasis on the martyrdom of the apostles, the endurance of the early church being persecuted under Nero, the conversion of the roman empire. No numbers do not tell of the popularity of an idea, but hundreds of people willing to die for a lie is a preposterous conjecture, that anyone with sense would not make.
Please respond in kind to the claims i have made. Continue to check your facts and don’t be a fundamentalist, attacking peoples beliefs who are different than your own and closing off your mind to the fact that you could ever possibly be wrong. You will prove that you have become all that you (probably) hate within Christendom if you are satisfied with false accusations, dodging real answers, and constantly playing the “I’m Right You’re Dumb” card.</p>
be not afraid Thu Oct 15 2009 12:26
Luther,
You tell me who has dominion? Please do not say “no one has dominion over anyone else” because I can guarantee you that you believe in euthanasia, abortion, socialism-in all of its forms, and who has dominion then? People do;flawed,self serving,power hungry people. You are being sucked in by the lies and the rhetoric. You are being guided by people who have become so errogant that they honestly believe the ivory towers they have built to the sky are so high above the rest of us that we could never think for ourselves or govern ourselves. Do you mean to tell me that there are NO hypocrits in the atheist ‘religion’?Not one? You think you have won an argument when you state how flawed and sinful Christians can be? Is that a joke? Certanily there are hypocrits, absolutely there are sinners who behave horribly. That is why we need God. We are weak, and cannot be strong without Him. Our short comings and failures do not in any way prove there is not a God. In fact ANY good that is in the world is because we have engaged our free will, given to us by God, to do good. My life has purpose and meaning because I have hope. I am entitled to that hope because Jesus Christ secured it for me. He is not stifling me, I am not in a school of fish. I can engage my will for good or evil. You don’t know what freedom is until you know God’s love. Then you are truly free.
Please explain to me how it makes sense that I may not extrapolate abortion because there have been SO many other forms of murder throughout history? Is that like saying “Don’t tell somebody not to do meth because people have done it in the past, or, Because there have been terrible things happening since creation, we cannot discuss just one”. You can’t be serious. So past killing justifies current killing? You don’t want killing to end because it wouldn’t be fair to all the killing? WHAT!!! I can’t go back and change history. We can’t live in the past, we can only learn from it. I will fight for babies and old people and whomever else needs protecting during my lifetime. I will endure your errogant misguided piety , and your persecution my entire life if necessary to proclaim the Gospel of Life to anyone. What else can I bring up? There is a smorgasbord of sin. Pick one!
I would like to know where an atheist like yourself stands on abortion, government, euthanasia, war, marriage and relationships, and other topics. To me all of these invole morality, natural law, common sense and most especially God. Don’t behave as though I am telling you that you are bad! Your behavior might be bad, but we all suffer from that affliction in our lives. Don’t behave as though because I have faith in God I am judging you because that is not my job either. I can however use the guidelines of morality to determine right from wrong, and see things for what they are. Ther is no such thing as moral relativeism because we are all on the earth together. What is relative to you is relative to me. Luther, you are definitely worth saving.</p>
Your name Thu Oct 15 2009 14:15
Patrick, once again, stop being an arrogant jerk.
luther Thu Oct 15 2009 16:06
Benotafraid,
You simple equate morality and Christianity, which is what you have been taught. History, however, teaches us the fallacy of that.
You have all of the answers, as given to you by your high priestess. If you need her to tell you what is right and wrong, then you need religion to guide you. If you need some made-up God, then that is your weakness; don’t ascribe it to others.
Athiesm is not a religion. It is the absence of religion. If you cannot grasp that concept then you need to clear your mind.</p>
Your name Thu Oct 15 2009 16:15
Patrick:In terms of eastern deities, there is substantial evidence that there was a Guatama Buddha. That doesn’t necessarily mean he had any divinity, but he was a wise individual who spread his teachings and brought happiness to some people. That is what I believe Jesus was – a wise man who spread his teachings. He had no divinity, he was persecuted for his beliefs, and he died. The idea of that many people following his supposed divinity to death IS preposterous – but feasible. Think of how many atrocious acts have been committed in human history against humanity – many of which were in the name of a god! When I think of the Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, and Crusades, I can’t help but admit that people, in the name of their god, can do amazing and terrible things. Faith is a powerful thing, and though it may be misguided, it can still empower an individual through hardship or moral ambiguity.Same Student:I hope you read this, but if you don’t simply because of my beliefs, you’re only contributing to the stereotype of the religious ignoramus.While you may consider believing in Christianity to be the hardship, I consider it to be the opposite. For any hard knocks that come in life, you have Jesus. For any hardship, you have prayer. Even if you’re dealt a bad hand in life, you can look forward to eternal salvation in the afterlife. Christianity, and many other similar religions, seem to try and give you a crutch for life’s hardships with empty promises of salvation. Does it help? Sure! Religion helps many people live their lives better or happier. But should those people be using religion as such? When you put it in this context, religion almost sounds like a drug.But believing you have no all-powerful loving force? Pretending life is all you have? That’s the hard part. Look at some of the comments on this article! Several times people have mentioned how bewildering they find it that atheists can believe “life is it” – believing in such is hard to grasp for those who have grown up with promises of something more.In response to your moral questions, Same Student:The point of life is to live it. Make the world a better place, contribute something to society. Love and be loved by those around you. Bear children, continue your legacy. That’s it. It’s all fleeting, so you should enjoy it while you can.As was said before, you shouldn’t try and extract moral lessons from scientific notions. We have hospitals because technology has allowed us to try and prolong our lives. We have justice to promote social order – we are pack animals, after all. I’m amazed that you seem so much against living our lives normally, when I guarantee you if you took religion out of your life, you wouldn’t notice a change. You might even like life a little more, have a little more reason to live it well, and have a little more faith in humanity – that’s all we have, after all.As for your “we all do our own thing” postulation – yes, that’s right, but in the case of genocide, someone’s “own thing” encroaches on other people, and thus we try and stop it. You do your own thing, so long as it doesn’t negatively affect other people (obviously this is what we strive for, but it is not what always happens in reality).Be Not Afraid:I’m afraid you took my words out of context for a purpose which I did not intend. First, I would kindly ask that you keep politics out of this discussion – there’s no reason to bash Obama in a religious discussion. Second, I would accept your dare.Abortion is not killing IF it occurs within the first trimester (give or take). At this point, the fetus has little to no cognitive function, little to no sensation, and can barely be called human at all (I wouldn’t call it such). After it develops some cognitive function and sensation, then yes, abortion would hurt it. While I am not “pro abortion”, I do believe that the mother – whose body is being used parasitically by the fetus, mind you – has the choice to abort the birth or not. Not you, not her pastor, not a politician. The woman should be given that choice, ESPECIALLY if it’s in the best interest for her physical well-being.As for dominion – in abortion, the mother should have dominion over her own body. For euthanasia, the person has dominion over his/her own body, unless they are physically incapable of this, in which case someone close has dominion over the person. In terms of socialism – that’s politics, sir. Government in general has dominion, not just a socialist government. Even your republican government holds dominion over you, they just prefer less equality in their government than a socialist (Jesus would’ve been a socialist).But yes, people hold dominion. People are all we have in terms of deities. People have their flaws, but they also have their strengths. People do amazing, beneficial things on this planet. Just because the detrimental bugs in the apple get all of the news coverage doesn’t mean you should lose faith in humanity.Sorry if I missed any…</p>
bre Thu Oct 15 2009 17:56
I [an athiest] agree with “your name”. I think it would be a waste of time trying to convince you that there’s no god, because even though I dont personally agree with it, and view it as a crutch, it makes you happy. I would never abort a child myself, but i do support pro choice because there are extenuating circumstances that could be a reason to abort a fetus. I think this is far from persecution, especially when I am the one who is persecuted daily for not believing in an invisible man. I would love to understand prayer, but see it as a waste of time that would be better used actually finding a solution to a problem. I would love to understand how you christians believe that everything was poofed here by said invisible man without explaining where this invisible man came from or why he was bored. Also how the earth was created in 7 days but there are fossils from animals that existed before us. How is it that you don’t see the connection from your religion and others [ex. christmas falling on the winter solstace, easter on the spring solstace, innocent blood being spilled much like the aztec and mayan cultures to appease god]. And jesus isnt the only mythological figure born on christmas, there’s also mithra, horus, osiris, sol, saturn, apollo, etc. and by the way, i dont have to search through a bible, i was born and raised in the church and know a fair amount about christianity. it would be idiotic for me not to know what i am denouncing.</p>
be not afraid Thu Oct 15 2009 18:53
Luther, enough with the priestess crap! Don’t equate or relate Jesus Christ to any such thing.Your open-mind and thirst for knowledge has rendered you numb. What are you saying? Do you ever listen to yourself? Are you saying there is no right and wrong? Are you saying that you are not weak, ever? Is that the best you’ve got. Next, I’m afraid I am going to hear something like-”It is what it is man-things are what they are dude” What are you talking about? With what do you equate morality?Does anyone provide example for you? Do you reject all authority? Your parents must have been beside themselves. Whatever did they do until you came along to enlighten them and let them know how stupid they are. Do you realize, you have not explained or answered anything that I have asked. You stand for everything and against nothing?-but Christians that is. Say something that means something. Talk to me on my low level if you must, but say what you mean and answer some questions. What do you think about anything? Where do your ideas come from? Who inspires you? Why are you an atheist? What is your moral compass? Read all of this carefully and go through each question. Are you nice, are you mean, are you sympathetic or ruthless, do you believe right from wrong and what do you think is right or wrong? Who shaped you, who molded you? If you say no one then you want me to believe you raised yourself since birth, and no one has had any influence on you ever. Please give me something. In the mean time, I will be praying for you, not to a preistess, not to a noodle arm, not to a goddess, not to an alien, not to anything or anyone, but Jesus Christ who loves you way beyond your genius and your pride and whatever other weaknesses you don’t have! Luther, I’m really starting to care about you now.</p>
Mary Thu Oct 15 2009 19:19
bre, do you realize that in the same paragraph you supported the shedding of innocent blood and then denounced the shedding of innocent blood. Okay, I will play! I will use the word fetus too, because that and baby are interchangeable. There is never a justifiable reason to destroy an innocent life for that of another. NEVER! We are not talking about self defense here. We are talking about big people killing little people-defenseless people. I am so thrilled to hear you say that you would not kill a fetus, and that tells me one very important thing about you-you know there is a God who loves you , that fetus, and the sacredness with which a mother loves her child. It is simply unnatural and goes against the very fiber of our being. Handicapped children are not mistakes, children of rape and incest are not mistakes-they are innocent victims, but need not ever feel it because their is so much love for them. Women who are raped should not have their horrifying experience compounded with the killing of an innocent. That is simply too much for any girl or woman to have to endure. You think the slaughter of the Aztecs and human sacrifice was an abomination, I agree, but we have replaced it with abortion. There should be no human sacrifice unless it is a case where we, ourselves, are willing to die for our fellow man for good cause. If you were raised in a Christian Church then I want to apologize for whoever sinned against you and led you to the conclusion that God did it. I can assure that He did not. He is the same always, it is only people that fail us NEVER God. I know you have a free will but God is waiting patiently and always will be. My best to you.</p>
same student. Thu Oct 15 2009 20:24
bre – i think you know a lot about religion. not Christianity. i think you’ve seen a lot of hypocritical religious people. not Christians.
Jesus taught and yearns for relationship. Christianity isn’t a bunch of rules or a check list of things you have to do to go to heaven. it is knowing Christ. it’s a relationship.
that is THE critical difference between Christianity and all other religions. it’s a relationship. we can do NOTHING to earn God’s forgiveness. Christ did EVERYTHING. the difference is that other religions have you do things and follow a bunch of rules as a means of getting enlightenment or pleasure or whatever. that is not relationship. that is work. that is exhausting. that is NOT freedom.</p>
luther Thu Oct 15 2009 20:38
Benotafraid,
See, there lies the problem with all religions. Every religion is the one and true religion. All doubters or non-believers are amoral or immoral; all are going to hell because the One True Religion holds the keys to heaven and only the believers can come aboard.
Do you need Moses to tell you not to kill or not to steal? If you have to consult a thousand year old book to tell you right from wrong then we have found the root problem. You better check the proper passage too; you may pull up something about smiting the non-believers.
Ask the question that you would care to pursue and I will answer it. I don’t have the time or interest in playing twenty questions and my history is irrelevant.
As with most religious folk, you jump to far too many conclusions. That goes with the territory, of course. Your presumptions don’t need to be true, you just have to believe them.
But, let me ask you a question: why do you believe?
Patrick:
Your name,
Great response, thanks for taking the time to consider what i said, and respectfully engaging me.
Don’t have time for a full response right now. I also had a midsection to what i said yesterday that got deleted thanks to dailygamecock.com’s faulty server.
That said, i will give a response at a later time. for now,
be not afraid
As a brother in christ, it is my calling by my king to admonish you through scripture, similar to paul’s pleadings to timothy, to use scripture to teach, rebuke, correct, and train in righteousness.
That said, i want to make some conjectures.
* you are young, probably under 21, and grew up where spouting things like “You are being sucked in by the lies and the rhetoric” at people who do not trust Christ was acceptable.
It is not. This is not the grace found when Christ confronts his lost sheep, and as such your words should not be like salt on a wound but like a city on a hill in the middle of the desert.
Do not make assuptions for people. do not tell them that they are wrong. They have worked very hard, long, arduously, and painstakingly to come to the conclusions that they have drawn. Do not disrespect them for that.
If you grew up in a country where Islam was the accepted religion, you would be extremely offended when people came to you telling you you were wrong. The only way to effectively show Christianity is to show Christ. That is what i am attempting to do, through logical discourse (for i am called to love Christ with my heart, mind, soul and strength), and you are often subverting any effort the holy sprirt would be able to make through His power by being a resounding Gong, filled with pride in your knowledge of the truth.
Knowledge of Christ, if it is real, will result in humility, not pride. Pleading, weeping over the lost, bowed at the foot of the cross where the ultimate sacrifice was paid, pleading for others to draw close, screaming “there is room! there is room!”
Not saying “You are being sucked in by the lies and the rhetoric!”
Please i beg you, get Satan out of your mind before you speak again! pray, humble yourself, for Christ’s sake, literally. The holy spirit can work despite you but wouldn’t you rather help than hinder His urgings?
p.s. i didn’t grow up in church. i grew up an athiest. I’m very thankful that i didn’t hear anything about Christ until i was 17 years of age. Very helpful for understanding objectivity, reason, rationality.
