Jesus: Lord, Liar, Lunatic, Literal; Part 2 – Josephus and the Talmud

For additional reading, check out Jesus Interrupted, by Bart Ehrman.

It has been some time since I last wrote, and I apologize for that.  Some have asked me if I was reconsidering my views; I am not.  At any rate it would be necessary for god to completely alter history and create new sources to corroborate the events of 2000 years ago for me to believe in Christ again, as well as provide a reality-based theological origin for original sin, since assuming there is no original sin precludes the need for the sacrifice of Christ.  Today I want to examine the evidence for Christ from extrabiblical sources.  Often, apologists attest to the passing mention of a “Christus” or “Yeshua” outside of the gospels by several scholars, but these descriptions are often one-sided.  To their detriment, I chose to read the other side of the story about these writings and realize the utter uselessness of their testimony when verifying the claims about the divinity of Christ posed in the gospels.  I now judge the merit of essays or writings of apologists based on the author’s integrity in reporting the weakness of the testimony, and if they don’t mention these I don’t dare trust what they might say.

At this point, I must make an analogy to help you understand what I believe is true about Jesus.  Saint Nicholas, who lived in the late second century, was a real person.  There are multiple separate attestations of his existence and he was most probably a giving person, who distributed wealth anonymously.  However, whenever someone is perceived as “larger than life,” mythology and imagination have an opportunity to overtake the human mind.  The mythology surrounding Nicholas was already in the realm of fantastical before his life was even over, and the legend of Santa Claus was born out of that.  Parents routinely lie to their children (in the same way that the mythology of God is propagated) about the mythical nature of this real man.  All that to say, I believe there may have been an individual named Yeshua that was a teaching prophet around the time of 0f 0 A.D. (C.E.; doesn’t matter).  I do, however, disbelieve that he was born of a virgin, believed he was the son of god, cured people of blindness through spitting in their faces, fed tens of thousands of people (hundreds by many reconings), or resurrected from the dead.  I say this because I think that things which attest to the human Jesus and not to the divine Jesus help to show the mythology surrounding this man.

The Talmud

The first source for extrabiblical proof of Jesus I want to examine is the Talmud, a collection of Jewish history and writings from Rabbis and Scribes.  It provides a wealth of knowledge about the Jewish tradition and records.  First it is interesting to note that much of Jesus’ purported teaching is directly from the Talmud, and is not at all contrary to the Pharasees’ teachings at the time.

In the writings of the Talmud, there are as many as 5 references to different Yeshuas, scattered throughout the centuries.  Sanhedrin 43a refers to a Sorcerer with 5 disciples that enticed jews to apostasy, and his disciples were killed.  In another iteration of this manuscript, the hanging of Yeshua (called Ben-Stada) on the eve of passover was added (Florence manuscript 1177 CE).  This reference is most commonly used to be proof of Jesus, but this raises multiple questions.  Why was this Yeshua hanged, and not Crucified? Why were only 5 disciples listed, when the gospels clearly attest to 12 disciples? Why is he called a sorcerer, and not a heretic?  The Jewish community was reasonably incensed throughout the gospels, but such acts of blasphemy would have been recorded correctly, rather than as a sorcerer.  Furthermore, the gospels attest to the crucifixion on the day of passover, and not on the eve (Last Supper).  Well, of course, that is ignoring John, who says (19:14) the crucifixion took place on the day of preparation of the passover.  At any rate Crucifixion is not hanging, so I put this account of the talmud up as proof of a possible historical Yeshua that made no claims of divinity, was not crucified, did not resurrect, and was otherwise unimportant.

Josephus

One of the biggest go-to’s of the Christian apologist is Josephus. Josephus was a Hellenistic Jew born in 37 AD who became a very good military tactician. He fought for the Jews in the first Jewish Roman war, from 66-73 AD. After the Jews lost, he was recruited as a general for the Romans, and subsequently fought against the Jews for the roman army. This action created an immense hatred for him within Jewish circles.

After his military career, he set out to write an accounting of the Jewish history for a largely Roman audience. To that end, he has extensive commentary and provides historical corroboration for many events alluded to in the bible, as well as the Talmud. For example, Josephus’ writings are what helped identify the discrepancy in the gospels of Jesus’ birth year because of the nonparallel existence of Herod the Great and Quirinius. Here, however, we are talking about Jesus. There are two references to Jesus in Josephus’ writings. The Testimonium Flavium, named because of its significance as a ‘contemporary jewish source’ reads:

Antiquities 18:3:3
At that time lived Jesus, a holy man, if a man he may be called, for he performed wonderful works, and taught men and they joyfully received the truth. And he was followed by many Jews and many Greeks. He was the messiah. And our leaders denounced him. When Pilate caused him to be crucified, those who loved him before did not deny him. For he appeared to them after having risen from death on the third day. The holy prophets had, moreover, predicted of him these and many other wonders. The race of Christians takes its name from him, and still exists at the present time.

You would be hard pressed to find a modern scholar not willing to admit that the italicized portions were not added after the fact.  It is nearly unanimous, in a way that many things are not, that the italicized portions were added after the fact.  Some scholars go as far as to believe that the entire section is spurious.  Another argument for a completely spurious insertion is based on the fact that the following paragraph only makes sense if the entire 3rd paragraph is removed (referring to ‘another sad calamity’).  This is evident from the text, and very little of the language follows josephus’ normal writing.  He was a Jew, to be sure, and reveals no information in any of his writing that he was a Christian of any sort.  I personally think he may have made passing mention of a character, but that a majority of the text was not made by him.  At any rate this passage proves nothing more than the mythological nature of Jesus, where zealous copyists are willing to lie to propagate an untruth.

The other passage is much shorter in its mention of Jesus, and it is mainly about a James’ execution (I say a James because it is unclear if this is the James the brother of Jesus or just another James).  From Antiquities 20:9

1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, (23) who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. (24) Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

This James’ execution differs from the execution mentioned by the historian Hegesippus.  Apologists cannot have it both ways.  The emphasis of the story is not on James or Jesus, but on Ananus the crazy high priest.  The portion referring to james as the ‘brother of christ’ makes no sense in the passage, in light of the passing mention of both James and Jesus.   One piece of evidence for interpolation is the fact that in the original Greek, Josephus used the phrase “whose name is James” to indicate that there were no other indicative facts of which James it may be.  He uses this language often elsewhere when he seeks to provide no additional details.  The passage itself is written with the same text as that of the gospels, and in light of the previous interpolation, most likely a Christian addition.

In my opinion, the forgery of such mentions of Jesus does more to allude to the mythological nature of Christ than his historicity.  The talmud barely mentions him, and there is very little detail that lines up with the Jesus of the Gospels.  One of the big steps of my deconversion was the re-examination of these facts; There is very meager extrabiblical evidence for the mythological jesus (one that raised from the dead), and certainly not enough evidence to stake your entire life on.  Josh McDowell makes no mention of the spurious nature of the Josephus passages, and to his detriment.  I feel that sometimes the historicity of Jesus is often based on a lie, or at least a lack of honesty about the true nature of these passages.  I have no reason to trust a god that must rely on falsification of documents for proof of his existence.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and god shows a distinct lack of ability in the evidence department.

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  • Joseph Ray

    Why should Christians listen to you (or speak with you for that matter) if your only way of accepting Christ is to do the impossible (reordering history)? If you are not open to changing your mind through what is logically possible (not the reordering of history), then why should you expect others to be open to changing their mind? Why would a skeptic even say something like that in the first place? No theory of time rationally allows for the changing of events (neither the A, or the B theory).

    • lpmitch

      right; he can change history by introducing new undiscovered texts that are not altered and corroborate the story. New discoveries are made every day, but there has yet to be a discovery of a document written either by jesus himself, or by a direct contemporary of jesus that adequately verifies it.

      You sound like you do not believe God has the power to do supernatural or irrational things. Are you saying then that god is not omnipotent? You cannot have it both ways. I am a skeptic about the supernatural claims of god. Am I wrong in thinking that god can do supernatural things, and that would serve as evidence for a supernatural being?

      Either the christian god is omnipotent and can
      *alter time and history
      *perform miracles
      *send people to heaven or hell

      or he cannot. I suppose my question is, is your version of the christian god omnipotent or not?

      • Joseph Ray

        How could God do something irrational? YOU cannot have it both ways. Either your understand what God has done as evidence for you or God does something irrational that you could never count as evidence because you cannot understand it. Part of who God is, is logic embodied. He cannot make a four sided triangle because that is impossible by definition. Your definition of omnipotent is flagrantly against other attributes of God (i.e. he does contradict himself).
        He can do supernatural things, because the natural world is not all there is. He cannot do irrational things because the rational world is all there is.

        Even if we found documents written by Jesus, I highly doubt the skeptical world would be like “Oh yay we believe now”. Its more likely they wouldn’t accept anything as evidence because they can’t even accept the gospels as evidence.

        • Joseph Ray

          you instead of your and doesn’t instead of does.

        • lpmitch

          An argument from logic is a separate line of thinking that i have not yet addressed. I admit the gospels as evidence, but i believe their contradictory nature, the inclusion of supernatural events, and 3rd-hand nature as evidence of another contrived religion created by humans. This is corroborated by the distinctly opposing nature of pauls’ teachings, the notion that christ would return within that generations’ lifetime, and the eventual humanization (read: humans taking advantage of religion) of the religion. There is no correlation in any statistical sense with being a better person because of Christianity; divorce rates are the same, murder, crime, everything. All these things are admissible as evidence.

          I admit them all as evidence, but I just don’t come to my conclusion based on a confirmation bias that there is a creator: i conclude based on evidence that there is no God.

          “Part of who God is, is logic embodied”:
          No. God is God. Logic is Logic. They aren’t the same thing. Logic isn’t a supernatural creator being that lives in an invisible realm and directly interferes in a supernatural way with humans. I guess I need to blog a post about how God is not logically possible.

          As to my definition of God’s omnipotence, I’m familiar with the straw man you’re jumping to, and i have yet to say anything that is logically impossible. I said he could alter history (as many young earth creationists believe he did), or as he possibly proved by creating water from wine (i.e. jesus created something with the appearence of age). These are not outside the logical realm of omnipotence. I’m sorry you couldn’t understand my argument but next time please don’t jump to a contrived definition instead of actually working to understand my points.

          “Your definition of omnipotent is flagrantly against other attributes of God”:

          The problem of evil, stated by epicurus, does a good job of explaining why God pidgeonholes himself. Even the nature of God’s free will, or prayer does a good job of this. God’s own definition of omnipotence is flagrantly against his own attribute of benevolence, justice, or omniscience.

          “He can do supernatural things, because the natural world is not all there is. He cannot do irrational things because the rational world is all there is.”

          Right.. I won’t grant you your premise exists in logical context (the premise that there is a supernatural world) as it cannot be verified by repeated experimentation. Therefore it is illogical to allow for supernatural occurrences in a world of logic. He cannot do irrational things because they are impossible. No being could make a 4 sided triangle, and i haven’t even touched on creating an unmovable object. I don’t think there’s a supernatural, and I’ve been dismantling claims to that end. I see no reason to believe in something that cannot be proven to exist, especially to the point of allowing it to influence my choices.

  • Joseph Ray

    I get the part about God being Logic from the Greek in John chapter 1. Yes, you would need entire blog post about your position regarding God not being logical. I’m not sure what you are calling a straw man. It is clear from the two theories of time that time can’t be altered. Making something in time that looks old is not altering history; it is altering a material supernaturally. The very act of making must happen in the present if only because the nature of the language requires adherence to use of proper grammar to describe the event. Water into wine is not the appearance of age (unless you know how water can turn into wine overtime). Are you ok with old earth creationism? If so, then I don’t have to say anything about young earth. If you are going to continue to respond in such a way as to say “you couldn’t understand” or “jump to a contrived” or “straw man” then I’m going to bow out. The problem of Evil argument that you point to is an example of a false dichotomy. I recommend listening to William Lane Craig on this subject (his Reasonable Faith podcast has many casts about that one argument). “as it cannot be verified by repeated experimentation” is an alien a priori way of thinking to me. How can the supernatural (that which is outside of the natural world) be tested by the natural world? By definition this criteria cannot be met. Therefore it is illogical to expect to test the supernatural. It is not illogical to think you cannot test everything.

  • lpmitch

    I think you would need an entire blog post to validate that without using the bible as a source for you to say that god is logic (or exists logically). Shelly Kagan does a good job laying out the fact that the laws of logic exist independent of a logical agent, and that they are self evident (in his debate with Craig).

    I cannot understand your conception of god at all. My understanding of the god i worshiped for 10 years was that he was all powerful, could do things that were supernatural (i.e. that directly conflict with our scientific, theoretical understanding of space and time), that he exists outside of time, and was ultimately responsible for all events that have ever occurred throughout our 1 dimensional existence along the timeline. He is transcendent and exists in all periods of time at once, and has the ability to affect thought, choice, and reality in ways that are above and beyond our comprehension.

    In that sense, an alteration of history seems a paltry act for such a being of unlimited power. You say he cannot alter history according to two non-theistic rational observation-based theories. These theories preclude the possibility of a timeless independent god-agent by their nature.

    Your god could do plenty of things to convince me of his existence; He could create in the ground at this moment as i type a document written in Jesus’ own hand that said “I am the risen messiah” that cures people of ailments with their touching it. Indeed faith healers claim special power in much the same way, but every case i’ve ever examined was that of a scam artist using adrenaline and mild hypnotism to create emotional disposition to belief in supernatural claims. He could spontaneously appear to everyone at the same time. He could send me messages through my mind. If it was the same god of the bible, i would still have moral objections to arbitrary forgiveness of eternal damnation, his questionable morals in both the old and new testament, and confusion over why he was so insecure that he demands my worship at the threat of eternal punishment…

    I think you misunderstand me, or underestimate me in some way. I was a christian for 10 years. I didn’t grow up in church, but converted on my own in 10th grade. I have always excelled in school, music, writing, and comprehension, and have always believed in a rational, reasoned (vulcan) approach to my reality. In my sophomore year of college, as a music education major headed to seminary I spent nearly every night reading about the arguments of Josh Mcdowell, Craig, and others. My bookshelf has 2 rows of Christian nonfiction. I taught bible studies on the merits of Calvinism, on the transcendant nature of God, and i reveled in his unknowability, because my curiosity would always be satiated by learning more and more. I had pillars of community, of the historicity of Jesus, of the martyrdom of the apostles, of prayer, of the power of god over reality and creation, of my sinful nature, my family, and several incredibly strong emotional experiences that ratified my convictions. Learning and pursuing these convictions was a daily goal, one that i did not take lightly for 7 years. I left churches that i felt did not push me enough, or were not optimal for my spiritual needs (read: i could not serve as well and grow as much in because they did not understand theology properly) I led, argued, debated, considered, and evaluated. I had 2 atheist friends that i regularly got into arguments with about everything, and they were forced to concede on multiple occasions over the course of 2 years. I went to watch richard dawkins when he came to my school, just to know. Then, one by one, on close inspection, I found that my beliefs were based on weak evidence.

    That journey is what i am sharing.

    You mention william lane craig. He is a skilled debater, and extremely good at what he does. His arguments, however, are extremely weak in my estimation, and I have read many refutations of his points. I enjoy watching him debate, but i object to a majority of his premises. He is a debater, and you would do well to study him if you want to win debates. If you want to win people, i would advise against it, however.

    As to my attack of your straw-manning; I will respond later to this. I was simply pointing out that God is in no way obligated to do something logically impossible by changing history. You compared it to saying god should create a round square or something; this is logically impossible, but for the Christian god, alteration of history is not impossible (unless god is not omnipotent). I’ll respond further at a later point.

  • Joseph Ray

    While I take time to mull over what you have said, have you considered Josephus in the Aramaic version? The Christians didn’t get to change that one and it shows that Josephus at least thought Jesus existed.

  • lpmitch

    What evidence do you have that the Christians did not change that version as well, as its language is still fairly pro-christian, and the extant manuscripts were recopied by Christian scribes? I have already stated my position that i believe a historical Jesus existed, but i disbelieve the mythology surrounding him. The interpolation in the Greek manuscripts adds evidentiary support to this hypothesis.